SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Punishment Or Murder ?

Fendouglas

Gangless!
Punishment Or Murder ?
It was poor training! The Soldier could have taken the grenade to a secure area and thrown it where it would not harm anyone!

The Officer was definitely wrong in his choice of 'punishment' but, they were in a hostile environment where one of the greatest sins is to fall asleep on guard duty.

It was only in the 1970s that, as a prerequisite for joining NATO, Turlish Regimental Commanders had to relinquish the 'right' to summarily execute (without charge or trial) up to 6 soldiers a year (or so the rumour around NATO went).
 
Punishment Or Murder ?
If a charge is brought it will be manslaughter. A charge of murder would have to prove intent to kill.
 

PASH

Member
Punishment Or Murder ?
Personally i think its manslaughter but the stupidity of it overwhelms me. Having handled grenades, they can be notoriously fickle and to hold the primer for 20 minutes would place serious strain on your hand. Personally i would have walked back to the CO's office, lobbed it in, and ran!
 
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panther

Member
Punishment Or Murder ?
Stupidity of that officer. He has a duty to protect his men. No doubt this officer will be paying his penance now. The punishment has backfired.

Manslaughter.
 
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Fendouglas

Gangless!
Punishment Or Murder ?
If a live hand gernade is forced into my hands, that's intent to kill.

Biker Bob

If a loaded pistol, with the safety catch off is put into your hands, it's not intent to kill; It's up to you what you do with it. Same principle applies to the grenade
 
M

Mack

Guest
Punishment Or Murder ?
Just plain stupidity and no thought of the consequences (which seems to be all too common in most areas of life in Turkey) to kill not only the private in question but three others he was with too is unforgivable, call it murder or manslaughter 4 innocent people died because of this mans thoughtlessness and recklessness and I hope HIS punishment is severe enough to teach him HIS lesson.
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Punishment Or Murder ?
If a loaded pistol, with the safety catch off is put into your hands, it's not intent to kill; It's up to you what you do with it. Same principle applies to the grenade

Big difference, I can lay the gun down and not harm anyone.

Biker Bob
 

Fendouglas

Gangless!
Punishment Or Murder ?
Big difference, I can lay the gun down and not harm anyone.

Biker Bob

He was sent back to his post (with the grenade) - he could have then, safely, thrown it into a 'dead' area.

To ask for the pin (which he, presumably, insert to make the grenade safe) he must have been trained on the weapon - which would include how to throw it
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Punishment Or Murder ?
It didn't say his post, it said his position. He was caught sleeping at his post. The fact is that it was an unusually high danger risk of death in the method used to punish. As you can see it backfired. This was a premeditated punishment that unduely put many people at risk. I have a very difficult time believing that this method of punishment was within the militarys standards as stated by the officer.

Biker Bob
 
Punishment Or Murder ?
İ cant understand why he carried the Grenade with the pin out for quite some time..and why were other soldiers near him at this time....why didnt they run or tell the boy to throw the grenade away.
The territory around Elazig is very dangerous with the most concentration of PKK activity, and a soldier who was on guard and asleep long enough for his grenade to be taken without realising was putting everybody in danger.
Still its all very tragic and also shows the harshness that soldiers in conflict areas everywhere face.
 
M

Mack

Guest
Punishment Or Murder ?
He was sent back to his post (with the grenade) - he could have then, safely, thrown it into a 'dead' area.

To ask for the pin (which he, presumably, insert to make the grenade safe) he must have been trained on the weapon - which would include how to throw it

IF the stories reported are true and he returned to his position with the grenade of his own volition maybe its a fear of disobeying orders that made him hang on to it, (he wasnt far of finishing his "stint") or maybe he thought it wasnt live? (as that would be just stupid!). There are way too many variables we will never know but I think to apportion any blame for this outcome to a private on his miltary service is disproportionate to the blame that must be held by the so called "lieutenant".

I havent been trained on the use of grenades but even I know on the pineapple style grenades a pin secures the release handle (hollywood teaches so much, except being able to pull em out with your teeth, I know theyre too strong for that :) )
 

panther

Member
Punishment Or Murder ?
The sergeant could have woken this soldier up. There will definitely be two guilty people now.
 

Fendouglas

Gangless!
Punishment Or Murder ?
To BB: His 'Position' would be his 'Post' and if he was on guard I would expect it to be on the perimeter of the location.

To Mack: He would not be on guard duty with a grenade that was not 'live' (just as he wouldn't have a rifle that was not loaded) and he obviously knew it was live, other wise he would not be trying to replace the pin.

To everyone else: I agree the Officer was way out of line and the punishment far too harsh - to the point of recklesness (as subsequent events proved!) and I would expect the Officer to be Court Martialled for his actions - be it Murder, Manslaughter, Reckless Endangerment or whatever. The Officer's prime duty is to the welfare of the men under his command.

The soldier, however, deserved punishment for neglegting his duty (i.e. Falling asleep on guard) but not death - or the deaths of his comrades. However, had he been properly trained in the use of grenades (and the fact that he knew to replace the pin would indicate that he was), he should have known how to dispose of it safely. And a (properly) trained soldier should not have fallen asleep at his post.

This all indicates, to me, that the unit was badly trained, badly run and there was very little consideration given to welfare and/or morale - and this is down, soleley, to the Officers and NCOs
 

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