proof of no children

[storm nelson]

does anyone know what document is acceptable in turkish courts to prove that a deceased uk resident with a turkish property had no children?
Celtic has previously been very helpful and I wonder if anyone has had experience of having to prove this?
many thanks, Storm.

 

[shirleyanntr]

Hello there,i would think that you would have to swear this before a Commissioner of Oaths, and in Turkey this can be done before the Savcı/the Public Prosecutor.

 

[celtic]

does anyone know what document is acceptable in turkish courts to prove that a deceased uk resident with a turkish property had no children?
Celtic has previously been very helpful and I wonder if anyone has had experience of having to prove this?
many thanks, Storm.

I'm not sure what the rules and the requirements are in British law system, but you can not prove it by swearing in Turkish courts for your inheritance case. It's verified by the records of the parish registration office in Turkey whether you have descendants, siblings, spouse or any other relatives. Same way is followed by the courts in the cases of foreigners and a writ is sent to the relevant consulate for verifying the existence or absence of relatives.

 

[Karyn UK]

This is a problem, there is no recognised document to prove this because its a crazy thing to try and prove....there is only one way to prove a female has not had children and no way to prove a man has not fathered children!

If you remember Shirley, when Jen died, her sons were asked the same impossible to prove question at the court - prove that you are the only two offspring of your mother - and as that is not possible because the UK does not keep records in the same way Turkey does where your kimlik number can bring up a family tree, the consulate had to to step in and sort things out.

I think in Storm's case the key thing is there is a Will which has now been six years in administration. There are no pending claims from children to cloud things so I think the priority should be to get the UK will accepted in Turkey and those relatives who have a claim on the reserved portion are alreadyidentified and capable of stepping forward with their claim to the court.

An affidavit from a UK notary stating that it is impossible under UK birth registration protocols to prove no child exists should help the court understand the difference between UK and Turkish law.

Karyn

Thought - if the original will was worded in such a way as to state that the deceased had no children that might help e.g. "As I have no living children I leave all my worldly goods to .......". Or, if the deceased was proven infertile and the records could be obtained that stated that it may also help.

 

[shirleyanntr]

Yes Karyn,you've reminded me of the awful time those boys went through when Jen died.
İt pays to tie up as many loose ends as possible, and as you say how can you prove whether you have or havent any offspring.
Storms situation seems very complicated because of the new executor being awkward.

 

[Karyn UK]

It was a terrible time for them, I remember. My inheritance issues here were much more straightforward because everything we owned was through our company which made it moveable assets and so, despite various objections from lawyers trying to drag things out, the UK laws applied and I got everything done in record time, about two hours actually! Companies may be expensive to run but if you want to save your family suffering the agony of a drawn out process and you want your wishes upheld then they are worth their weight in gold.

Karyn

 

[Guz1]

Does that mean, Karyn, that people who would rather disinherit their children could do so by setting up a company and transferring their Turkish property to the company?

We haven't made a Turkish will yet (no spouses or children). I'm wondering whether it would be good enough to include a sentence in the will saying that neither of us is married or has children. Do you know whether that would be acceptable in Turkey or would our beneficiaries still have to prove to the Courts that we had no offspring?

I'm in no hurry for an answer to these questions because I plan on living into my nineties or at least until I get a cross in the Kat Mulk box - not sure which will come first.

 

[JohnF]

Hello there,i would think that you would have to swear this before a Commissioner of Oaths, and in Turkey this can be done before the Savcı/the Public Prosecutor.

A friend was acting as an executor a couple of years ago in Fethiye and the court were initially insistent that a certificate be obtained from the local Nüfus Müdürlüğü.

It took two hearings before they accepted a sworn affadavit from a Notary Public in the U.K. which had to be Apostilled by the FCO which stated that there were no parents, siblings or undeclared children still alive.

I also think that they had to produce Death Certificates for the parents and a brother who had died a few years earlier (not 100% on this).

JF

 

[leylaasena]

When my Dad died here the court wanted proof that I had no siblings - even tho my Dad's Will named me as his sole heir.

I had to get a letter from his Uk solicitor confirming that I was entitled to the money in his bank account here and take it to a solicitor here, who then took it to the local judge to get the right piece of paper stamped ,which I then took to the Bank, before they'd release the funds.

 

[Karyn UK]

Does that mean, Karyn, that people who would rather disinherit their children could do so by setting up a company and transferring their Turkish property to the company?

Basically yes, shares in a company are moveable assets (like money in a bank account) and UK inheritance laws apply to moveable assets under international law that Turkey has agreed to abide by.

You get an apostilled copy of the grant of probate, go to the chamber of commerce and reallocate the shares according to the UK will.

I think eventually, hopefully, Turkish courts will grasp that it is practically impossible for a UK citizen to prove they have no relatives, our system is just not set up that way. However, the stress this is going to cause people in the near/medium term, even those with wills, is going to be huge. And believe me, when someone dies the last thing you need is more stress.

These days we lead complicated lives and have complicated family structures and many of us don't want anyone other than us deciding who inherits what, and the only way to be sure our wishes are met after our death is to only own moveable assets in Turkey.

Karyn

 

[Sara-666]

Basically yes, shares in a company are moveable assets (like money in a bank account) and UK inheritance laws apply to moveable assets under international law that Turkey has agreed to abide by.

These days we lead complicated lives and have complicated family structures and many of us don't want anyone other than us deciding who inherits what, and the only way to be sure our wishes are met after our death is to only own moveable assets in Turkey.

Karyn

Karyn, thankyou, thankyou, thankyou!

I have been looking through countless pages of Turkish law sites, civil code sites, forums etc., but your posting has just confirmed what we had been told but didn't know if it was true, at least now we can make our wills knowing that everything will go to the people we want it to.

I will try to never complain about the monthly accountant costs again!!!

Sara

 

[Karyn UK]

I am, sadly, one of a very small group of people who has actually done this. I won't be part of a small group for long, as time goes on more and more people will face the inheritance process in Turkey and its going to cause huge problems at a time people need it least.

If I hadn't known this rule (forever thanks to Shirley who put me on the right track to ask the right question in the first place to find out what I needed to know) I would have spent years throwing money at lawyers in Turkey and suffering in the mean time.

Karyn

PS Sara, in your UK will leave detailed instructions on how to invoke the rule on moveable assets or your excutors likely won't know how.

 

[Lindacm]

Basically yes, shares in a company are moveable assets (like money in a bank account) and UK inheritance laws apply to moveable assets under international law that Turkey has agreed to abide by.

You get an apostilled copy of the grant of probate, go to the chamber of commerce and reallocate the shares according to the UK will.

I think eventually, hopefully, Turkish courts will grasp that it is practically impossible for a UK citizen to prove they have no relatives, our system is just not set up that way. However, the stress this is going to cause people in the near/medium term, even those with wills, is going to be huge. And believe me, when someone dies the last thing you need is more stress.

These days we lead complicated lives and have complicated family structures and many of us don't want anyone other than us deciding who inherits what, and the only way to be sure our wishes are met after our death is to only own moveable assets in Turkey.

Karyn

Hi Karyn,

I am a little confused, (not difficult) we have just made our Wills through a solicitor. She stated that all assets including property/money have to come under Turkish law. She stated that it does not only apply to immoveable assets, but moveable ones as well..i.e bank accounts.

I think you are saying differently, can you please confirm?

Many thanks,

Linda

 

[Karyn UK]

Yes I am saying differently.

Karyn

 

[Valian]

Great Solicitor you have Linda. :nono:

If the estate of the deceased includes immovable property in Turkey, then Turkish Law is applied; however, movable assets are subject to the deceased's national law.

 

[Lindacm]

Great Solicitor you have Linda. :nono:

If the estate of the deceased includes immovable property in Turkey, then Turkish Law is applied; however, movable assets are subject to the deceased's national law.

Oh dear and this solicitor came from a recommendation from several from this forum.

Will have to ask this question again to Celtic I think to be 100% sure.