ceemac

Shake It Baby...
National Identity
The Britain/Ireland thing debate on the Burkha thread was way off topic, so I've started this one as I just want to say something as comments have been posted that are not factual.

The fact is that the place where I live is officially called Northern Ireland - that is what it is internationally and legally recognised as.

It is not the 'North of Ireland' or the 'Six Counties' or 'Ulster' - those terms are used by people who have a certain agenda or belief, call it what you will.

Another fact internationally and legally held is that Northern Ireland, as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is British.

As part of the United Kingdom, people from Northern Ireland are British citizens. They are also entitled to Irish citizenship by birth which is covered in the 1998 Belfast Agreement between the British and Irish governments, which, provides that: it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

Personally, I consider myself British, I hold a British passport, and, although no longer practising, I am from the protestant tradition.

I have nothing in common with the Republic of Ireland apart from sharing the same land mass. I received a different education, different religious upbringing, different sporting outlook, and can't speak a word of Irish (nor Ulster-Scots mind you!!)

I don't mind people having apirations so long as they don't murder and bomb those that don't agree with them, which is what happened here.

Having said all that, I love Irish traditional music!!


C
 

Saoirse

Moderator
National Identity
I obviously would take a different view but would agree too that no one should use violence to futher their aspirations be it pro British or otherwise as no side has a monopoly on that one

I am born in Ireland my pport is Irish indeed the President of Ireland was born in the same city

There are 2 different traditions here and being born this part of the world is now internationally recognised as bestowing either Irish or British nationality on that person equally

I always found it intresting that even those who would opt to count themselves as British are generally referred to as Irish when they visit Britain
 

teosgirl

Member
National Identity
saoirse,

I think it's generally because alot of people *myself included* tend to associate nationality with language or accent. I can't tell the difference between someone from NI or someone from the RoI and I think most people would feel it rude to ask, as it may wrongly infer some kind of preference.
 

thingthong

Member
National Identity
Why bring your religion into the thread,its national identity.........good luck to you ,i just hope people from your said part of the world ,dont also see national identity and religion has going hand in hand ....very said really,i thought the dark days had gone...................
 

ukizook

Member
National Identity
I always found it intresting that even those who would opt to count themselves as British are generally referred to as Irish when they visit Britain

Why is that interesting ? if I visit Scotland, wales or Northern Ireland I am referred to as English. I have friends from scotland and Wales who are referred to as Scottish and Welsh....................but we are all referred to as British at some point because that is what we are. :ukflag:
 

ceemac

Shake It Baby...
National Identity
Why bring your religion into the thread,its national identity.........good luck to you ,i just hope people from your said part of the world ,dont also see national identity and religion has going hand in hand ....very said really,i thought the dark days had gone...................


I think you've summed up why we need to sort out our own problems :gulme:


C
 

Saoirse

Moderator
National Identity
Thingthong

As someone with an intrest in the political scene here for many years I am confident things have moved on immensely

Converesly since the ceasefires and start of the current political process sectarian division has actually increased. There are several reasons for this but unfortunately there are mindsets which have been established for generations which do not change overnight

Even taking that into account I am confident where the process is going and whilst there may be bumps along the raod generally the days o fmass violence are behind us


Why is that interesting ? if I visit Scotland, wales or Northern Ireland I am referred to as English. I have friends from scotland and Wales who are referred to as Scottish and Welsh....................but we are all referred to as British at some point because that is what we are. :ukflag:

its interesting that the British refer to them as Irish which is what they dont count themselves as!
 
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ukizook

Member
National Identity
But surely thats just a generalisation. What do the "British" folk from Northern Ireland call themselves apart from British? Surely they say "Northern Irish" and the rest of us Brits whether we are English, Scottish or Welsh call them the same...............or even "Ulsterman" in the same turn as Cockney, Scouse or Geordie.
 

carolmon

Member
National Identity
I am Irish from the Republic of Ireland and I am constantly referred to as "British" by other British people I meet on holiday.

When I politely point out that I am definitely NOT British they often insist that I really am because Britain is seemingly made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland!!!

This misinformation has led to numerous debates(!) and much frustration on my behalf as I try to explain the political and geographical situation.

I have been told that saying I'm Irish is similar to a Scottish person saying they are Scottish but at the end of the day we're all British so why am I getting worked up about it......... seriously!!

When I reply that I'm about as British as I am Japanese or Kazakhstani they still don't get it... makes me wonder what they actually teach in British schools.

(I find it doesn't go down well when my reply is "Oh well if you insist I'm British I'll just call you French OK?? Makes as much sense)
 

Saoirse

Moderator
National Identity
that is true Uzikook

Even Ulsterman is a bit of a conundrum as many who use that term dont accept that 3 of the 9 counties that make up that Province are in Rep of Ireland! Told you its complicated!

To sum it up (as this debate could go on forever, its lasted 600years so far!) as you know the vast majority o fpeople living in Belfast do so in segregated communities so I am only speaking for my own community. We are not obsessed with Nationality on a day to day basis

The fact that now both nationalities are totally equal in International law for most is enough to move on with the process

All sides here were united in their disgust for Jedward for example!

Personally I feel that those obsessed with this question are insecure in their position and especially so in where they feel/fear where the political process is going.

Things are moving along reasonably well and here in West Belfast most people are quietly confident that things will continue to progress
 
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arrian

R.I.P
National Identity
not sure this has anything to do with the topic, but both my parents were born in Eire, i was born in England. they used to get really angry at the so called Irish/American thing, and as far as they were concerned they were Irish and i was English of Irish descent, and i still feel that way.
 

Tess

Member
National Identity
Very true but would be the best scenario for all or most concerned. One day maybe.

I understand but I am happy with the way it is, the identity that is not any of the violence or the ill feeling between religions.
 

mollag

Kipper restorer
National Identity
My nationality under the recognised conventions is Manx [citizen of the islands and dependancies], i also have British citizenship through a scottish grandparent.
IMHO i consider my regional Identity as Manx, my national identity as British [ this stems from the British isles, not Great Gritain, a fairly recent union]. This to me is an ethnic/ regional grouping rather than a political one.
My continental identity is European.

The ethnic mix historically, within the British isles is vast, pictish british, saxon, celtic, norse, roman, north african to name but a few so claims to originality wont work, differences, where a tribal identity is absent, usually devolve to region and religion [ or lately football team]. Mostly people are defined by an accent rather than a genetic root.
 

Saoirse

Moderator
National Identity
The Manx culture is fascinating

I have read a bit about the similarity and indeed phrase adoption between Irish, Manx and Cornish
 

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