SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
I have done some research about the history of Israel and have come to an conclusion that yes there has been much blood shed the Israeli people initially just wanted to be left alone. I will give you the link at the end of this posting for you to read yourself. I went into readi this open minded and wanted to learn the truth. Here it is in a nutshell.

- Israel could never be at peace because it's neighbours would never allow it.
Here is a copy and past I took for what was the 1967- 6 day war.

On May 30, Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt, readying itself for war. Nasser stated: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations."

On June 4, Iraq likewise joined a military alliance with Egypt and committed itself to war. On May 31, the Iraqi President Rahman Aref announced, "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

As it turns out these countries underestimated Israel and lost. They not only lost but lost a considerable chunk of land mass.

Israel was willing to return this land it overtook in it's victory for a universal peace treatybut they were only offered part and parcel one, so they refused to give back the land.

There was very little assistance by the Americans at this point. The French helped out mostly with military equipment. The enemies of Isreal had the USSR backing them with the most up to date equipment and in Oct 73 Egupt and Syria launched another attack on Israel. Israel once again ended up victorious.

This UN Resoluion 242 that Philip often brings up basically consists of this,

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

The Arabs attempted to get the Israelies to pull back as 242 mention but with just partial offerings of peace. Israeli PM Golda Meir, who insisted that Israeli troops would not budge until there was a peace agreement in place.
That tells me that Israel would have retreated if they were offered a full peace agreement.

The Israelis were attacked, won, gained land, and then were told they should give this land back for nothing. Does not make sense to me.

So as I understand this is the way it is today. Israel was never offered a peace agreement as the Arabs and it's neighbours vowed they never would.

Israel in time understood this and started to extend their nation into the newly acquired land they won in battle. I agree the treatment of the palestinians have been terrible, but it was the same treatment from the Palestians against the Jewish people years before that. Not making light of it, just saying it's not all one sided. From what I understand, because the muslims would never agree to a peace treaty with the Jews the Jews are expanding thier homes into what is now their land won through a war they didn't start. I am sure Philip has read this and my question to you is, Resolution 242 was on the table and would have passed if a full peace treaty was signed. By the statements you have seen why should the Israeli government give up this land for nothing? I am sure that if a full peace agreement involving all countries that were against Israel then maybe that would still be an option. Yes we all know that Israel is much stronger then the Palestinians these days, so why do they continue to attack Israel? Yes Israel can inflict incredible harm so why attack them. If I were at war and my enemy only had a hand gun, but was shooting at me I would have no problem using my .50cal against him. War is not about playing fair, it's war. Two gangs fight, one gang brings 12 the other brings 20, tough luck for the smaller gang wouldn't you say.

Yes America is supporting Israel but if there wasn't this support you can be sure by past and present resentments that Israel would be attacked and attacked until it was wiped off of the face of the earth.

Here is the link,
Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)

Bob
 

Saoirse

Moderator
Israel
Bob

Theres no excuse whatsoever for the continuing treatment of the Palestinians in this manner

The one sided attitude of the Zionists flouting UN resolutions and no consequences, against other countries being punished for doing so says it all

I thought you were getting somewhere in your understanding of the situation but alas same old same old

As I have highlighted its the understandable sense of injustice over this that is expolited by nutters like Bin Laden, but sadly those in Washington etc just dont get it.

That ladies and gentlemen is why Al Queda and nutters like them will continue

No justice in Palestine, no peace across the world. Simples
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
Your wrong Philip. I read the link. From what I understood I told. If the combined enemies against Israel would have given an agreement to peace then Israel would have given back the land it acquired after they themselves were attacked. The Muslims would never agree to this peace agreement yet they don't think it's fair that Israel take over and use the land it rightfully one. Am I wrong on that part?

I am really trying to get a full grip on this, is it wrong what I said?

Bob
 

Saoirse

Moderator
Israel
Bob at talks after talks the Zionists have refused to honour the agreement regardless of guarentees

Meanwhile the suffering of the Palestinians living 4 decades in refugee camps continues

I have been involved with this since 1981. In 1982 at 2 camps the Israeli army sealed off the area and along with their allies in the area, Christian Falang, entered the camps.

Around 3500 men women kids and babies were systymatically butchered. Rows upon rows of bodies were piled up many decapitated some with their organs removed whilst alive.

To this day due to US backing the Israelis have not been fully brought to book for those atrocities.

Now if thats what you were growing up with, anyone under 41 knows no different life than that, can you understand why they are slightly miffed with Israel and the US?
 

Saoirse

Moderator
Israel
Bob
Have read it and many more
As I say have been involved with this for years

I believe passionately in equality and fairness and frankly there's no justification for the Occupation
There's no point going into the whole minutia of the conflict but suffice to say you have a lot of reading to do as it's complicated and that's even before you consider the legality of the establishment of the state of Israel itself

We are never going to agree on this as you take the US/Zionist position whilst i side with the victims

I would sincerely say Bob there will never be peace in the region nor an end to Al Queda type mutters until Palestine is free
 
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mollag

Kipper restorer
Israel
A few of the people involved in the formation of Israel

David Ben Gurion Polish

Golda Meir Russian

Menachim Begin Russian

Chiam Hertzog Irish

Lord Balfour British

Lord Rothschild British

Can you see the pattern? no palestinians! they was robbed and it seems to many that if something you own is stolen by violence then natural justice would allow you to take it back by force.
Surely you would not deny the palestinians the use of the same methods and tactics that Israel itself uses?

Get away from the spin the victims here are the palestinians not the Israels. The Israelis came to their land and took it from them not vice versa.
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
Bob
Have read it and many more
As I say have been involved with this for years

I believe passionately in equality and fairness and frankly there's no justification for the Occupation
There's no point going into the whole minutia of the conflict but suffice to say you have a lot of reading to do as it's complicated and that's even before you consider the legality of the establishment of the state of Israel itself

We are never going to agree on this as you take the US/Zionist position whilst inside with the victims

I would sincerely say Bob there will never be peace in the region nor an end to Al Queda type mutters until Palestine is free


You didn't read that link...it would take an hour. Based on the readings from that link. The land in which you call the occupied land was acquired in a war against Israel. Israel offered to give it back but only if a full peace treaty was offered to them. The palestinians nor the other muslim neighbours wouldn't do this so they kept the land that they acquired from an attack against them inwhich they didn't initiate. Am I wrong?

Bob
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
A few of the people involved in the formation of Israel

David Ben Gurion Polish

Golda Meir Russian

Menachim Begin Russian

Chiam Hertzog Irish

Lord Balfour British

Lord Rothschild British

Can you see the pattern? no palestinians! they was robbed and it seems to many that if something you own is stolen by violence then natural justice would allow you to take it back by force.
Surely you would not deny the palestinians the use of the same methods and tactics that Israel itself uses?

Get away from the spin the victims here are the palestinians not the Israels. The Israelis came to their land and took it from them not vice versa.

Please just read the link. I googled and this was the first O found...I was not looking for a biased opinion.

Bob
 

Saoirse

Moderator
Israel
Totally wrong Bob
I can't be arsed going through it all but suffice to say the state of Israel itself was illegally established never mind the land that they occupy
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
If you read it you would see this is not a biased recording of events. YOu only wnat to see it with blinders on Philip. You have not answered my questions, why? I don't want an argument.....I am trying to see things with open eyes and how they fallen into play.

Bob
 

Saoirse

Moderator
Israel
Bob
I would suggest then you research how the state of Israel came about
A potted history would be that following WW2 Jews were given land to use as their homeland.
The land they were given was stolen from Arabs
There began the injustice which is still with us today
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
Trying to learn here Philip, please TRY to be not toooo opinionated. The land I am talking about that the Israelis won was during the 1967---6 day war. I don't know or believe this included the gaza strip, please correct me if I am wrong. The new settlements have been where....what is the occupied land?

Bob
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
Bob
I would suggest then you research how the state of Israel came about
A potted history would be that following WW2 Jews were given land to use as their homeland.
The land they were given was stolen from Arabs
There began the injustice which is still with us today

The more I am reading the more I am confused with what your saying, after WW2 the jews were given this land to use. What about the fact that Jews had been there for hundreds of years before?


The State of Israel is born, have a look



On 14 May 1948, Israel proclaimed its independence. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland.

In what became known as Israel's War of Independence, the newly formed, poorly equipped Israel Defense Forces (IDF) repulsed the invaders in fierce intermittent fighting, which lasted some 15 months and claimed over 6,000 Israeli lives (nearly one percent of the country's Jewish population at the time).

During the first months of 1949, direct negotiations were conducted under UN auspices between Israel and each of the invading countries (except Iraq, which refused to negotiate with Israel), resulting in armistice agreements which reflected the situation at the end of the fighting.


Bob
 

Robert

Member
Israel
BOB,

I have had a look at the link and have a question,

IF THIS IS AN UNBIASED ACCOUNT OF HISTORY,

WHY IS THE SITE ONLY ASKING FOR DONATIONS FROM U.S.A. AND ISRAEL?


naughty naught bob:slapme:
 

SuperBogs

I miss you Pebble
Israel
BOB,

I have had a look at the link and have a question,

IF THIS IS AN UNBIASED ACCOUNT OF HISTORY,

WHY IS THE SITE ONLY ASKING FOR DONATIONS FROM U.S.A. AND ISRAEL?


naughty naught bob:slapme:

Didn't notice that. I am just looking for an unbiased history lesson, thats all.


Bob
 

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