Guz1

Member
Independent Judiciary?
Reading another thread about two members pursuing similar cases through the Turkish court system I noticed that one encountered difficulty getting a judge to accept her case whereas the other had no problem.

How independent are Turkish judges? When deciding whether or not to accept a case do they have to adhere to a written set of criteria or is it completely at their own discretion? Do they have to give reason(s) for refusing to accept a case?

Would any of the forum's legal eagles like to explain how the system works?
 

bickern

Member
Independent Judiciary?
Might be due to them being humans.

Not being sarcastic by the way, but no 2 think alike normally in whatever field they are in so more an observation.
 

Guz1

Member
Independent Judiciary?
All judges are human. Don't they usually have to adhere to codes designed to keep their decisions free from personal prejudice and outside influence? How, otherwise, can they claim to be impartial? If they have sole discretion on what cases they will or won't accept without any onus on them to give reasons, wouldn't that bring a whole new meaning to the term "Independent Judiciary"?

There must, surely, be some kind of rules or set procedure that doesn't vary according to the district or the individual judge?

Not for a second did I think you were being sarcastic. I appreciate your going to the trouble of contributing to the thread.
 

traveller

Member
Independent Judiciary?
A very interesting topic, I'd like to know the answer to this one as well. I don't know about "independent" but after reading the thread titled "Tapu scandal" they certainly don't appear to be impartial or to follow any set guidelines when making a decision, when they can come down in favour of someone who has no paperwork over someone who has everything in black & white.
 

carolk

R.I.P
Independent Judiciary?
I think this is a very good question Maria.

In my case I have not yet been given a reason - still waiting. The solicitor I have been to see said that, what has happened to me happens often. She said they have to much power and they have to continually try and get the judges to do the right thing!!

I saw one judge who gave me a court number to open the case, although I had previously done this, the file was upstairs but, seemingly that didn't matter and, having paid a further 640TL it was then given to another judge who said he would look at it and let me know????? Know what? I had paid the money, had all the evidence!! As you all may know, he said no the next day.

The solicitor I consulted also said I could open it in another town. She said this often happens and it goes ahead somewhere else. Make what you will of this but, it doesn't seem right to me. Also I may add that I may not be entitled to my 640TL back!!!! How can a case be refused in one town and given permission to proceed in another if its not a dodgy carry on?

I know of another person who has not posted on here, who followed what I had done and has a court date.

If there is a set of guidelines for these procedures, how can this happen? How do they know who is right without both parties appearing before him and giving their evidence.
 

ChrisBobs

Member
Independent Judiciary?
I have heard that some courts - Muğla is worse for some admin cases, and others are better. I am not sure if this problem is limited to Turkey, as it seems to be commonly accepted that some judges in the highest appeal courts in UK or USA have particular stance on subjects.
Law seems to be very much a matter of intrepretation and precedent.
 

Guz1

Member
Independent Judiciary?
I agree, Chrisbobs, about law being a matter of interpretation and precedent often determines the accepted interpretation. What intrigues me is the idea that a judge can refuse to accept a case without even a preliminary hearing and doesn't see a need to give reasons for refusing. That's where the procedures come in. If he doesn't have to give reasons, wouldn't the system or the judges be open to allegations of bias in favour of, say, vested interests such as developers or even favoured legal firms? Another matter of concern would be the possible of a judge being biased against foreigners.

It would be great if someone who knows how the system works could explain to us what procedures, if any, are in place to ensure that it is impartial.
 

bickern

Member
Independent Judiciary?
In the UK a barrister will argue precedent and site other cases and the judgements that were made at that time, but the judge will decide on the evidence put before him/her. c&p (The rules of English case-law do not derive from a particular theory of law, and do not attempt to deal with hypothetical circumstances. They are the result of the consideration of real situations which have come before the courts).


While you can say that the same happened to litigant A as happened to litigant B it does not follow that the same weight of evidence was provided/shown. Therefore in the UK similar cases are decided differently even if the evidence is the same, because they may not be presented the same, the judge will be swayed by how that evidence was presented.

It is necessary for any system of law to have a degree of flexibility, and to the extent that law is flexible it cannot be certain, and vice versa. The courts must therefore always balance the need for certainty against the need for flexibility in any particular case.

We are all swayed differently by any argument and at the end of the day that is what happens in a court, it is an argument.

In short the better the argument the better your chance of a decision in your favour and the bigger your cheque book the better you are able to pay someone who is good to argue it for you.
 
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carolk

R.I.P
Independent Judiciary?
You make some good points bickern, but what about in the case where no arguments have been put forward yet - I mean two sides to decide which is the better evidence or argument?
 

Summertime

Golden Girls
Independent Judiciary?
Reading another thread about two members pursuing similar cases through the Turkish court system I noticed that one encountered difficulty getting a judge to accept her case whereas the other had no problem.

How independent are Turkish judges? When deciding whether or not to accept a case do they have to adhere to a written set of criteria or is it completely at their own discretion? Do they have to give reason(s) for refusing to accept a case?

Would any of the forum's legal eagles like to explain how the system works?
Suppose it depends if they have a good or bad day, simple as that. :loco:
Or may be they know or are in family withe the person you take to the court.
 

Angela Stansfield

Non Active Member
Independent Judiciary?
Like Bickern says, providing you have a good lawyer or legal expert to argue your case for you then your chances of winning are much higher in the UK. If you put the correct legislation in front of the judge then he cannot rule any other than what has been legislated. Judges do not know every aspect of the law and are not specialist in any one subject. Sometimes, they have no experience of a particular case and you have to do your homework and present legislation and case law to point him in the right direction.

Many 'in the know' say that Turkish law is very similar to English law. However, I think there is too much power here in the wrong hands!
 
Independent Judiciary?
well it cost us £12.000 to start our court case and we may not even get that back, the system is ridiculous in turkey 3 months between cases etc. we been fighting our case for 19 months and 17months in the judge decided to give the tapu to a man who gained it through lending the builder money and who stood in court and said his family had nowhere to live which was a load of b*****s as he had another apartment opposite mine also gained through the same means. once the judge gave it back to him he sold it fully furnished, to a turk living in germany then sold the furniture on to my next door neighbour,
 

carolk

R.I.P
Independent Judiciary?
well it cost us £12.000 to start our court case and we may not even get that back, the system is ridiculous in turkey 3 months between cases etc. we been fighting our case for 19 months and 17months in the judge decided to give the tapu to a man who gained it through lending the builder money and who stood in court and said his family had nowhere to live which was a load of b*****s as he had another apartment opposite mine also gained through the same means. once the judge gave it back to him he sold it fully furnished, to a turk living in germany then sold the furniture on to my next door neighbour,

Hi Beckie

What has happened to you is terrible. There are other cases going on now and we will see if a pattern emerges here. I don't know how they can call it justice at all!!

Can you tell us what is happening now apart from the petition and who the useless solicitor you used was, so none of us make the mistake of using them?
 
Independent Judiciary?
in talks on webpage the link for your petition is on there too.
my original solicitor was good but he buggered off to the army ,so wasnt really his fault but he didnt inform anyone he wwas going or tell us we had a new solicitor,as soon as the new one took over our tapu exchanged hands, but we have had more sense out of him since we met him.
 

Angela Stansfield

Non Active Member
Independent Judiciary?
It is an absolute scandal that you had to pay £12,000 to start your case! In the UK, the circumstances of your case would be considered fraud, and the police would have taken over to investigate and prosecute.

Thats Turkey for you! I hope not another single foreigner buys a property here!
 

carolk

R.I.P
Independent Judiciary?
Are you/can you appeal?. Surely thats not it is it? You pay for a house and they take it off you!!
 
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juco

Member
Independent Judiciary?
One issue I find difficult to cope with is the strength of a case, If it was in the UK and you go to a lawyer they will tell you some sort of odds for or against winning or indeed if you have no chance at all, it is then for you to decide if you want to proceed. In Turkey they appear to take on cases regardless just so that they can get paid some of your money. So effectively you have to pay out £ks with the odds stacked against you.
 
Independent Judiciary?
i think there may be a bit of misunderstanding ..
the person you see at the start of a complaint is the Public Prosecutor/Savcı..and like PP's the world over they do vary in whether they will prosecute a case or not.
 

Angela Stansfield

Non Active Member
Independent Judiciary?
I dont think there are many countries that would not prosecute someone for scamming someone out of their properties or life savings. It is clearly an open and shut case.

The first purchasers clearly purchased the property and the property should never have been sold on by the very same vendor who knew very well he had already sold it AND been paid for it. In the UK I dont think there would be a single Judge who would not have awarded the property back to the original purchasers, then ordered a criminal investigation against the vendor.
 

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