Crime in the UK, what's the answer?

[Martyn]

Well after the debate on the death penalty i thought I'd like to find out views on crime in the uk and what can be done. We have all sorts of crimes from burglary to knife crime. Whereas a deterrent would be of no good for murderers i do believe it would be for other crimes. Once people got the idea in their head that crime doesn't pay we may get somewhere. Prisons are over crowded and too soft. We have people committing crimes so they can go back to prison. I'm sure there is a directive for all judges to keep people out of prison judging by some of the sentences dished out. Rather than build more prisons why can't we make things a lot tougher(forget about their rights), more people to a cell, less privileges and longer sentences. Make it so they don't want to go back. Of course every case is different and we have people on drugs committing crimes. Let's throw in ID cards into the melting pot, we always have a good debate on that.

Should we bring back military service, I believe there is a case for that and teach the youngsters respect and get them learning how to look after themselves?

Stop and search, less limitations on what the police can do, let them search who they want for knives. The word would soon get around.

Let's have some ideas.


Anyway the blue touchpaper is lit and I'm standing well back.:heh:

 

[Akasya]

Lets have more fit robbers running from overweight coppers, thugs properly trained in the use of weapons. Too right.
Steve.

 

[Mack]

I think we should all have ID cards, all our private and personal data stored on easy to read RFID chips in all our documents and hopefully one day in an implantable chip under the skin, our DNA registered at birth and stored forever, be watched and surveilled everywhere we go, have all car journeys monitored and recorded, be stopped and searched on the street with no reason, be glad that people can be arrested and held without charge for 90 days coz you just never know, brainwash neighbours and children and rent a plods to report anything slightly out of the ordinary and have loads of state sponsored TV telling us all that its all for our safety so we all feel secure and justified in the knowledge that all the criminals have ID cards, DNA records, all their movements monitored and can never do anything naughty ever again, hell in a couple of years the UK shouldnt have any crime at all!.......

.......Oh I just had such a strange dream, and you were there Mr Blair and Mr Bush and Martyn

 

[Martyn]

I think we should all have ID cards, all our private and personal data stored on easy to read RFID chips in all our documents and hopefully one day in an implantable chip under the skin, our DNA registered at birth and stored forever, be watched and surveilled everywhere we go, have all car journeys monitored and recorded, be stopped and searched on the street with no reason, be glad that people can be arrested and held without charge for 90 days coz you just never know, brainwash neighbours and children and rent a plods to report anything slightly out of the ordinary and have loads of state sponsored TV telling us all that its all for our safety so we all feel secure and justified in the knowledge that all the criminals have ID cards, DNA records, all their movements monitored and can never do anything naughty ever again, hell in a couple of years the UK shouldnt have any crime at all!.......

.......Oh I just had such a strange dream, and you were there Mr Blair and Mr Bush and Martyn

We think so alike :bounce:

 

[Higgy]

Great idea Martyn but I can tell you first hand having served over 30 years in the Police it will not be adopted.

At every step there are do-gooders fighting the case for the offender/s, I think it was at least 21 organisations for the baddies and only 7 for the victims of crime. That says it all.

When I attended the Local Forums where the ordinary members of public
had their say, the majority of complaints were about

Rowdy Teenage behaviour

Dog Pooh

&

Lock the Buggers Up

Teenagers hanging around is not an offence but in the eyes of the older person seem a threat and they are frightened of them even if this is ill perceived.

Dog Pooh, well it is annoying getting it on your shoes etc and as the saying goes. There are no bad dogs just bad owners.

Criminal Reform IE Lock the Buggers up is always mentioned and we all know Prison does not work in making them a better person. BUT do we or should we care if they do not come out a better citizen ? If they do it again lock them up for a bit longer.

The members of the public who have been a victim of crime just wants the offender/s locking up so that he/she cannot commit any more crimes. They are not interested in any educational reform whilst inside.

I have visited loads of prisons and the equipment is first class and on the fitness side can be better than a Fitness Club.

The Judges will have Government directives to keep the numbers in Prison down BUT build some more and make them feel as if it was a hardship to be in there.

Three meals a day : 1 hour in the fresh air : Then banged up.

It may work but there again Common Sense has gone out of the window - along with the TV and Video.

Rant Over - sorry about mentioning dogs.

Our Newfoundland Puppy should be with us in Sept.

 

[peter the postie]

You've all beaten me to most of the things I'd like to see applied. But following past debates I have to admit that people like Soiarse (I never know if thats right) have swayed my opinion on compulsory ID. There are so many good reasons for implementing it, but there are also good arguments against it. I think I'll plonk myself on the fence on that one.

The british justice system does bemuse me though. I can't for the life of me see any point in handing out a life sentence if it doesnt actually mean life?
Its the same across the whole board of course, and its bloody pointless.

I dont think tv, or any form of entertainment should even exist in our jails. Isnt jail supposed to cut criminals off from society?

Jail has to be a deterrent, even more so in todays society and it simply isnt.
I'd be interested to know how many criminals re-offended after release many years ago when jail was much tougher?
Recent figures of criminals reoffending are no surprise to me, below is an article from the times that shows just how bad things are!

More convicts reoffend after release from jail - Times Online

 

[pineapple1]

1 I dont mind either way about ID cards especialy if its a Driveing Licence & Passport ect all in one . 2 National Service should be brought back To teach Respect & Disapline And Routine those would help in thier future jobs . 3 The sentanceing system should be tiered to fit the crime . Long sentances for the great train robbers and 5yrs for baby P mum !! Proves money is classed more valuable than human life . Life should mean Life I'd have a double or quit law . if you serve 5yrs Released and do it again you automaticaly get 10yrs for the 2nd offence .20 for the third ect .....Diane

 

[carolk]

I agree that prison should be tougher. There was a time when it was thought that if you respected a person rights as a human being this would then teach them how to become a productive member of society because, it was society fault that people are the way they are - bad childhood, one parent family etc. I think that time has long since gone, it hasn't worked. I do believe that anyone can make a mistake and then go on to never re-offend but the numbers are so low as not to be worth spending all that time and money on people who believe the world owes them a living and are 'wired' wrongly!!!! Two more articles in the Daily Mail today about children dying at the hand of their parents. Someone has to stand up for victims, there are too many legal eagles making money defending the crooks. Chain gangs spring to mind.

 

[Akasya]

Is this Tlf, or reactionary Britain at prayer. Thank goodness the right wing of the Tory party IS dying out, so many of you will be so so so disappointed when Dave gets in, start planning the putsch now.

I was gonna type " the BNP will start looking so attractive to so many of you soon " but i didn't want to bring ideas to the fore. Then i thought it is all so cyclical, soon the focus of the " fleet st. rags " will move on. How they must laugh in the real " closets " of power ( not enough of em for corridors ).
Steve.

 

[Higgy]

How did the BNP get into this thread ?

 

[kaplumba]

I don't know anything about prisons and have never been in one so can only go on the media reports but maybe they should be much tougher. As for military service for all teenagers. Most definitely not. I don't want my kids doing it, they are respectable, well behaved, intelligent young men and I don't want them sent as cannon fodder to Afghanistan or wherever trouble is when it is not their choice. They will be supporting themselves and contributing to society without causing any bother, like many others. Not all kids are a problem. I used to work for the army in Germany and had this discussion with army personnel. They don't want kids who don't want to be there either. They don't want yobs they want professional soldiers.
What we do need is more support, education and help for families with young children. That's where discipline must start and I don't mean aggressive, violent discipline which leads to violent, aggressive teenagers. I mean supportive parents who learn to bring up their children with care.

 

[Jane Moorman]

I had a conversation with a relatively high army officer about National Service etc. According to him this idea is not supported by the military. It is the last thing the army need right now, training willing and able personal is difficult enough with the resources they have. The personnel required to train unwilling youth have to be first class officers, they would be better placed elsewhere....

I am afraid the problem we have is down to years of poor education, lack of affordable housing, and no work. Some families have parents and grandparents that have never worked and lived off the state. What incentive is it for the kids to improve themselves? There is no social housing to speak of and owning your own home is now out of reach for most people. Girls think that the only way they can have a place of their own is to have a baby and no means to support it. So another generation is born who parents don't work....

The papers are full of stories about graduates not being able to get a job and are in debt because of the student loan system... So what is the point of spending years in education.



I have an 11 year old boy and look at his school friends, and have started to see many lovely kids going down the slippery slope of being a kid who will be hanging about street corners and bullying any one they think they can get away with.

I am sorry if this is a bit muddled, but it is just I am typing as thoughts pop into my head.....
There is no simple solution.

 

[littledave]

i,d like to think i have well mannered and behaved children and we are constantly on at them about respect for basically every thing that they do from saying hello goodbye etc to even throwing litter. i witness every day with children and adults alike that they have no respect for where they live and people around them. my personal belief is that if you teach them these qualities at school even if it means being punished at school by ways of a clip round the ear so be it.. i,m sure theres alot of members here like me was a rebel at school and every week i got caned or slipered. it made me think... we have a freind and there son is an absolute waste of space.. did not go to school and when he did he,s attitude was well what can they to me.. well in my school days i would shat meself saying that to a teacher.. well i,m all for national service and a tougher punishment. it did us old boys a lesson and more in portant respect..

 

[Jane Moorman]

I have no problem with teachers having the authority to deal with matters. My teachers did and I was terrified of telling my parents if I was punished at school because they would just double it up! .
However, these days there are a lot of parents who do not have that belief. They march up to school and threaten the teachers etc.
I have just had an incident outside the house. I was in the front sweeping up when i heard glass smash. I went to look to see what had happened to find 4 6/7 year olds 3 boys and one girl running out of a side alley. They were laughing. As I approached they ran away. I followed, and found them playing on some open ground. I asked them if they would come with me to sweep up the mess I did not get a response.
My door bell has just rung - there standing looking very sheepish were 3 of the 4 children apologising for causing a problem. I asked them what we should do now, should we go any clear it up together . They said they said they had. So I shook their hand and said I was proud of them, coming to say sorry was very brave and clearing up the mess was good news.
So I guess it is a case of standing up to them and all of us taking responsibility from the start. Praising when praise is due and teaching them about consequences.

 

[advent]

I think we need to make prisons a place that no one wants to return to. No televisions, no gymnasiums, compulsory work programmes, no luxuries, good food but basic, no pool tables or anything else you would find in a holiday camp,trouble is no one cares about re-offending because if they get caught they dont mind going back to prison

 

[kaplumba]

In over 30 years of teaching I haven't actually met that many parents who are abusive to teachers and I have worked in every kind of community. Most are actually supportive of teachers actions even if they are ineffective parents themselves. I think the actions of a few become magnified in the press and in people's minds. A clip round the ear or any other form of aggression is no deterrent and only serves to teach them that violence is a way to get your own way. Having observed many families over many years I am absolutely convinced of this. The children who have parents who hit, slap or whatever else you care to name it are producing children who are more likely to get their own way by aggression. They are the ones who tend to become the bullies at school and have no respect for the teachers, other children and society as a whole. They need good role models who give them time and care something that so any families don't consider, preferring the quick fix of a slap. It is so obvious to me that the families that raise successful children are the parents who put their own needs aside for a few years and concentrate on talking with their children and spending time doing the things they enjoy. Sadly I don't think we'll easily get this problem sorted as it takes money. More money for early years education, for both the children and their families. There are many improvements happening at this moment, more training for educators and many community projects but it will take years for this to feed through and it is not enough. Another consideration that will not be popular is that research has shown young children really need their mothers around for several years. Making it so important to get them back to work while they are still babies is not a good way to go. Of course if those mothers are not working they should be tending to their babies needs - talking and playing with them much of the time making them feel secure and happy.
As for the comments about graduates not finding jobs. The jobs are there. Maybe they need to think outside the box a bit. My son has just finished his finals. All of his fellow students have jobs, he is off to one in Switzerland and it was his first application and interview. He will be back to work in UK, pay off his loan and be a good member of our society before long though.

 

[bobthenob]

Never before in the history of the last century of Britian has crime become so bad.So,it is reasonable to ask one self with the penalties we have,whether they are deterrents or not and also is our society addressing the real root cause of criminal behaviour.

With the namby pamby state rewarding the criminals and punishing the law biding,gives out the wrong signals for those that with to choose a life of crime.This only promotes bad thoughts,not deter antisocial thoughts.

Certain criminals will never change their ways,because after a spell in a prison the criminal can become more cautious from getting caught again.A prison is like a school to the criminal mind,they learn from other criminals how not to be careless again.So,in effect the prisons really are a criminals home for learning antisocial skills.

Many crimes do go unpunished and this gives them the thoughts of crime does pay,which makes them more bolder,even if they do get caught,the so called punishment is like a holiday for them.No deterrent there unless the whole system wakes up to the way the evil mind works.
What makes aperson turn to crime.lt has nothing to do with poverty,unemployment,or thoughts of despair.The answer is simple,they chose to commit crime and learnt from other criminals how to commit antisocial acts.Criminal acts are really a product of that persons thinking and are predaters who had freely chosen this way of life.

The criminal is not born a criminal,but is born innocent until that person is contaminated with antisocial thoughts from their surroundings.Crime does begin within,by self inflicting negative thoughts from the tools of television and listening to the wrong people that fuels such antisocial behaviour.This mental behaviour is nurturing wrong desires that will lead to harmful acts on their victims.lt also has a sinister side to it,where we are all born with a conscience but can be easily destroyed by evil thoughts.

Even the hardened criminal can change if he only allows himself that chance.l believe the changes can come from the mind if that person is willing to adjust his attitude and thinking patterns to conform,then the chemistry in the brain will alter in a more calm and positive way of thinking.Not towards the shifting of materialistic values,but values of how ethic’s are so beneficial towards the individual and others.

The punishment must be of hard work and the teachings of morals with disipline in mind.To teach them the reasons why not to delve into images that alters the mind that leads towards wrong desires.The teaching of what to avoid that causes criminal thoughts and how to promote a good diet that will make the mind healthy and strong.The work they do is for the community to put something back they have taken.And to conform to thinking correctly which will benefit the community and the prisoner.

 

[kaplumba]

Your statement about crime statistics may be inaccurate Bob. Go back 100 years ago or more and crime was much worse. In crowded inner cities rape, murder, drunkenness, crimes against children, prostitution, muggings, burglary etc were rife and often unreported and not dealt with. I am law abiding as are my family and we certainly don't feel punished in any way. I have been burgled once and had my bag stolen once. The police were efficient and helpful and caught the second thief. I suppose if she had lived in another country her hand may have been cut off but I wouldn't have wanted that. No doubt her punishment didn't help her much although they did say she would get help with her drug problem. But what I am trying to say is that I haven't experienced that much crime in my life and don't feel hard done by in any way in UK.
From things you have written in the past Bob I think you have experienced much more crime in Turkey than many of us in UK. I hope the legal system there has been able to help you and the justice system has delivered suitable punishment.

 

[bobthenob]

Your statement about crime statistics may be inaccurate Bob. Go back 100 years ago or more and crime was much worse. In crowded inner cities rape, murder, drunkenness, crimes against children, prostitution, muggings, burglary etc were rife and often unreported and not dealt with. I am law abiding as are my family and we certainly don't feel punished in any way. I have been burgled once and had my bag stolen once. The police were efficient and helpful and caught the second thief. I suppose if she had lived in another country her hand may have been cut off but I wouldn't have wanted that. No doubt her punishment didn't help her much although they did say she would get help with her drug problem. But what I am trying to say is that I haven't experienced that much crime in my life and don't feel hard done by in any way in UK.
From things you have written in the past Bob I think you have experienced much more crime in Turkey than many of us in UK. I hope the legal system there has been able to help you and the justice system has delivered suitable punishment.

l filled in the missing words.l meant to say of the last Century

 

[kaplumba]

That's better Bob, there were a few sweeping statements there! I still say that despite worrying statistics I do not feel hard done by or punished in any way and have experienced very little crime. You on the other hand seem to have experienced quite a bit in Turkey and from your writing seem very bitter about it and rightly so. I would be interested to know if you think the authorities dealt with it efficiently there. It is something that needs dealing with very seriously in many countries and I feel strongly that one way is to provide more support for young families. If these parents along with their extended families could get it right from the word go there would be dramatic changes.