pineapple1

I Love Kleopatra Beach !
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Christian hoteliers charged with insulting Muslim guest

A Christian couple who run a hotel have been charged with a criminal

offence for allegedly insulting a female Muslim guest about her

beliefs.

- Jonathan Wynne-Jones

Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang are charged with breaching Section 5 of the

Public Order Act, causing harassment, alarm or distress. If

convicted, they face fines of GBP 2,500 each and a criminal record.

The Muslim woman was staying at the Bounty House Hotel in Liverpool,

which is run by the Vogelenzangs, when a conversation arose between

the hoteliers and their guest about her faith.

It is understood that among the topics debated was whether Jesus was a

minor prophet, as Islam teaches, or whether he was the Son of God, as

Christianity teaches.

Among the things Mr Vogelenzang, 53, is alleged to have said is that

Mohammad was a warlord. His wife, 54, is said to have stated that

Muslim dress is a form of bondage for women.

The conversation, on March 20, was reported by the woman to Merseyside

Police. Officers told the couple that they wanted to interview them

over the incident.

After being questioned on April 20, they were interrogated again three

months later before being charged on July 29 with a

religiously-aggravated public order offence. They appeared in court

on August 14 and are now awaiting trial.

Mr and Mrs Vogelenzang do not accept that they were threatening or

abusive in any way. David White, who is representing them, said that

they believe they have the right to defend their religious beliefs.

Their case is being funded by the Christian Institute, which has

backed a number of Christians in legal disputes.

A spokesman for the Institute said: "We are funding Ben and Sharon's

defence because we believe important issues of religious liberty and

free speech are at stake.

"In many instances we have detected a worrying tendency for public

bodies to misapply the law in a way that seems to sideline

Christianity more than other faiths."

A police spokesman said: "Merseyside Police can confirm that Benjamin

Vogelenzang and Sharon Vogelenzang, both of Fazakerley, were charged

with a religiously-aggravated public order offence on 29 July 2009.

This follows an incident on 20 March 2009."

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So They think thier good Christians . Not in my book thier Not !!.
I posted this so we all know which Hotel to avoid in Liverpool ...Diane
 
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Complicated issue. On the face of the above report I'd say "Guilty" but I'm not too happy about it. Best avoid such arguments.
 

pineapple1

I Love Kleopatra Beach !
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Well its the part about " they have the right to defend thier beliefs " and "Fre speech is at Stake " But also the woman has the right to defend her beliefs too And i think they could have been more Tolerant . But like i said Its realy for people to avoid that Hotel if they wish to Especialy any Muslim members of the forum . I don't argue about Religion may whowever is your god go with you Has Dave Allen used to say ...Diane
 

Martyn

Member
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Well it's not that clear how the discussion started. If you have a discussion about any subject be prepared to get upset sometimes, it's not against your human rights to be upset. If they slated the religion without a discussion I can understand why this came about. According to the post it was a discussion. My views on religion may well upset some people but is it against the law if I feel the Burka is oppressive against women? Can I say that? I also believe that we shouldn't waste our lives worrying about what is going to happen in the next world when no-one knows, live this life to the full and don't be a prisoner to your faith. Of course some people will be upset but I don't expect to be in court over it. That's the problem with society today is we are controlled in what we do and say to ridiculous levels. We should be able to discuss and give opinion. That's my tuppence on it. If anyone is upset then report my post and one of my colleagues will delete it. :roundgrin
 

Yalides

Am I pretty ?
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Well it's not that clear how the discussion started. If you have a discussion about any subject be prepared to get upset sometimes, it's not against your human rights to be upset. If they slated the religion without a discussion I can understand why this came about. According to the post it was a discussion. My views on religion may well upset some people but is it against the law if I feel the Burka is oppressive against women? Can I say that? I also believe that we shouldn't waste our lives worrying about what is going to happen in the next world when no-one knows, live this life to the full and don't be a prisoner to your faith. Of course some people will be upset but I don't expect to be in court over it. That's the problem with society today is we are controlled in what we do and say to ridiculous levels. We should be able to discuss and give opinion. That's my tuppence on it. If anyone is upset then report my post and one of my colleagues will delete it. :roundgrin

Agreed.
 

bigmac

Member
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
I think there had to be some thing more to this than youv,e said for some one to be charged in a court of law because the story just does not make sense to me
 

carolk

R.I.P
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Imagine having a discussion in which you and the other party dis-agree about religion - as often happens and finding yourself in court!!! Its one of the most hotly debated subjects I know of. Wonder what would have happened had the 'christians' gone to the police to complain!

I did read it at the time and thought -rubbish and, I have no religion.
 

Yalides

Am I pretty ?
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Imagine having a discussion in which you and the other party dis-agree about religion - as often happens and finding yourself in court!!! Its one of the most hotly debated subjects I know of. Wonder what would have happened had the 'christians' gone to the police to complain!

I did read it at the time and thought -rubbish and, I have no religion.

Good observation.
 

fran1

Member
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
Well it's not that clear how the discussion started. If you have a discussion about any subject be prepared to get upset sometimes, it's not against your human rights to be upset. If they slated the religion without a discussion I can understand why this came about. According to the post it was a discussion. My views on religion may well upset some people but is it against the law if I feel the Burka is oppressive against women? Can I say that? I also believe that we shouldn't waste our lives worrying about what is going to happen in the next world when no-one knows, live this life to the full and don't be a prisoner to your faith. Of course some people will be upset but I don't expect to be in court over it. That's the problem with society today is we are controlled in what we do and say to ridiculous levels. We should be able to discuss and give opinion. That's my tuppence on it. If anyone is upset then report my post and one of my colleagues will delete it. :roundgrin


Well I've heard some things! It is part of the compulsory UK school curriculum that all religions are taught and the children are encouraged to debate issues. In the Sociology courses, especially at A level, factors like the Burka are very hotly debated as are other views about Religion. More to this than meets the eye!!
 

lewknor

lewknor
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
I would have thought that the Merseyside Police had enough to occupy themselves rather than get involved in this case. Of course. we don't know the full story but from my perspective this would appear to be a total waste of police resources. For sure the police must act on a logged complaint - what an unenviable career to have these days !
 

jimskem

Member
Christian Values NOT !!!!!
The hotel in question is close to Aintree University Hospital in Liverpool.
On December 8th both of the owners of the hotel are due to appear at Liverpool Magistrates Court.
The reason i mentioned the above hospital is because patients and visitors from
out of town are, or were, recommended to stay at the hotel. If a patient, say
from North Wales, had an early appointment at the hospital, it may be convenient
to stay at the hotel the night before.
The hospital authorities no longer suggest the hotel.
This has resulted in takings being down by 80 per cent, and it is now up for sale.
What a strange country we live in, Service Personel returning from active service
abroad are greeted by a certain minority with placards calling them child killers and murderers, and a private debate within a hotels four walls is deemed immoral.
Post number 8 on this thread has it in a nutshell.
 

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