KanadaKid

Member
Caliphate.
so maybe in another 5 years we may have caliph recep tayyip erdogan - something else for him to aspire to maybe.
 

ghclare

Member
Caliphate.
Bill, the article is quite interesting, but (inadvertantly) obscures the fundamental facts in a web of intellectual nuance. The facts are that there are about 1.5 to 2 billion muslims in the world. 99+% of believe the message of the Quran, which includes notions like "there is no compulsion in religion," "killing an innocent person is as if one killed all of mankind," and a basic tenet of Shariah --protection of indivuals and their property from tyranny of rulers/government. The so-called Islamic State is the antithesis of these fundamental principles of Islam. Even if, say, 100,000 terrorists associated with Al-Bagdadi believe in his caliphate, the other 99.9999% of muslims will have nothing to do with them. People like Al-Bagdadibare despised by "real" muslims for "hijacking" their religion.

George
 

Bill & June

Dreaming of Akbuk
Caliphate.
You are almost certainly right George in what you say about the majority of Muslims, however the article does say that the project is "misconstrued"

Bill.
 

ghclare

Member
Caliphate.
Yes, Bill. I didn't say that the article was wrong -- just that it offers nuanced intellectual gobbledygook on a subject that is black and white -- as obvious as the nose on my face (no nuance there).

George
 

Bill & June

Dreaming of Akbuk
Caliphate.
George,
Any criticism that you have about gobbledegook should be addressed to the Student of Islamic Jurisprudence who wrote the article. I found it very interesting to read and I personally learned something about the subject. I don't necessarily think that the whole thing is as Black and White as you suggest. However I am open to correction.


Bill.
 
Caliphate.
the Koran is full of contradictions eg. sure 5.32 and 5.33
5:32
Killing one person except for a just cause is like slaying the whole people; saving a life is like saving the whole people (killing here refers to a Muslim killing another Muslim and not humanity in general—ibn Kathir).
Contradiction: in 5:33 Allah commands Muslims to crucify or behead those who criticize Islam and Muhammad or do not convert to Islam.

here is the Caliphs message.
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's Message as Caliph :: Middle East Forum
 

Akasya

Postless Pointer
Caliphate.
Bill , you can't move in Stratford upon A without having to dodge the ravening hordes betwixt the Mosques dedicated to his memory.

Truly a comedy of errors.

Steve.
 

ghclare

Member
Caliphate.
the Koran is full of contradictions eg. sure 5.32 and 5.33
5:32
Killing one person except for a just cause is like slaying the whole people; saving a life is like saving the whole people (killing here refers to a Muslim killing another Muslim and not humanity in general—ibn Kathir).
Contradiction: in 5:33 Allah commands Muslims to crucify or behead those who criticize Islam and Muhammad or do not convert to Islam.

here is the Caliphs message.
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's Message as Caliph :: Middle East Forum
Of course there are contradictions -- just as in the Bible. Just as we learned in Sunday School, the Quran should be read in context, and the contradictions fade (though, may not disappear completely).

As for "good men doing nothing," I doubt the majority muslims in Iraq will stand for ISIS/IS for long. Unfortunately, that will mean more blood spilled in that wretched part of the world. May God have mercy on them all.
 
Caliphate.
Of course there are contradictions -- just as in the Bible. Just as we learned in Sunday School, the Quran should be read in context, and the contradictions fade (though, may not disappear completely).

As for "good men doing nothing," I doubt the majority muslims in Iraq will stand for ISIS/IS for long. Unfortunately, that will mean more blood spilled in that wretched part of the world. May God have mercy on them all.

however the Koran said to be the literal word of God should not contain contradictions.

Iraq is finished as is Syria but like many areas in this part of the world they also were hybrid countries and now the boundaries are again being redrawn this time by ISIS who should not be underestimated

The majority of Iraqis are busy killing each other they have killed off or made to submit most of the minority religions that once coexisted in the area.I have friends who are Mandaeans who with most others of this religion fled from Iraq after the 2003 invasion when sectarian violence reached appalling levels.

Indeed its heartbreaking and hard to see where or when the blood letting will end.
 

Akasya

Postless Pointer
Caliphate.
Maybe this realignment in Syria , Iraq et al , is a more realistic representaion of the area , and not just a load of lines , drawn on a map at a cigar and brandy laden cohort in a london Gentleman's club.

Steve.
 

MiddleEarth

MiddleEarth
Caliphate.
the Koran is full of contradictions eg. sure 5.32 and 5.33
5:32
Killing one person except for a just cause is like slaying the whole people; saving a life is like saving the whole people (killing here refers to a Muslim killing another Muslim and not humanity in general—ibn Kathir).
Contradiction: in 5:33 Allah commands Muslims to crucify or behead those who criticize Islam and Muhammad or do not convert to Islam.

the Koran said to be the literal word of God

And of course the Bible is not? If the Bible is not the "literal word of God" then is is not a "holy" book. It is then just a bunch of words written by who knows and who knows when. Allegedly "holy" books which have been revised since their supposed inception are so full of omissions and editings that it is no wonder a reader becomes confused and comes to misunderstandings. This sort of argument is never-ending, you can find anything to support any evil or good deed in any of the so-called "holy" books.

Doesn't this...
Matthew 22:39
"Love your neighbor as yourself."

contradict these???
Luke 19:27
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Deuteronomy 17
"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

2 Chronicles 15:13
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

As a woman you should appreciate these verses, do you comply or concur?
1 Timothy 2:11
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Anyone who takes these books literally is a fundamentalist and on my "loon watch" list.
"...the majority "classical" and "traditional" opinion codified hundreds of years ago was indeed that apostates from Islam should be killed. However, such views are abundantly present in the Judeo-Christian tradition as well, yet Jews and Christians have over the course of time reanalyzed their canonical texts and come to different understandings today."

Look at all the different versions of what are commonly called "The Bible."
New International Version

New Living Translation

English Standard Version

New American Standard Bible

Holman Christian Standard Bible

International Standard Version

NET Bible

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

And let us not forget these...
King James Bible

King James 2000 Bible

American King James Version
 
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Caliphate.
middlearth i respect your opinions however this isnt about bible versus koran


though i will say that the New Testament which in my opinion shouldn't be linked to the Hebrew texts does not incite violence since it contains the command in the Golden Rule to unconditionally love one another regardless of creed or race

....this simple edict is not present in the other two books which are i agree full of mayhem and on close inspection are almost identical.
 
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