Martyn

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
As a spin off from another thread that went down the road of morality I'd like to open a discussion. In the other thread a discussion arose about dvds and piracy. How moral are you? Would you buy a pirated DVD, handbag, watch? In the thread it was brought up you are denying royalties. Would you pay cash for a discounted home improvement job knowing that tax evasion was probably the reason for the discount? Would you do a job cash in hand and not tell the tax man :biggrin:

I think I am a moral person, I give to charity, I help others for no payment and give up my time. I've brought my family up with good values, honesty and integrity but I would do a job for cash(I work full time PAYE) and not declare it and if someone offered to do a home improvement for £1000 but £900 for cash i would take it.

What do you think?
 
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Are we moral and what is morality?
Does anyone pay royalties when they sing "Happy Birthday" in public?
Photo-copy a part of a map?
Copy sheet music?
Do you download music which requires a license?

Personally I think morality should be judged by higher things than this.
 
Are we moral and what is morality?
The DVD situation has wider implications. I can see the point that one member believes he is helping feed local families who may otherwise not have enough money etc. However we must remember in the UK fake DVDS are said to be helping organised crime, drugs and other "non moral" sidelines. I am not suggesting this is happening in Turkey - although it may be - but I think there are varying degrees of piracy about. Some are simply guys downloading torrents from the internet, copying them onto DVDs and selling them on, but others are massive businesses with thousands of copies and thousands of outlets which I am sure are not just being used to feed a family.
 

immac

Senior Member Has-Been
Are we moral and what is morality?
The Kray twins loved their mother and helped out some needy people. Hitler liked dogs and children. Stalin was a good father. Tony Blair sometimes told the truth.

It is possible to be two things at the same time and to blur the edges of morality.

Ian
 

Martyn

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
I agree with the first three but not the last one :biggrin::lie:
 
Are we moral and what is morality?
Its a good job that morality here in Turkey is not judged on getting jobs done for cash without receipts, or helping businesses evade tax otherwise we would all be taking part in the biggest Immorality Reality Show ever....or maybe we are!
 

Martyn

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
Their black economy must be larger than their white one :biggrin:
 

KKOB

Completely Chillaxed
Are we moral and what is morality?
Why do you have to spoil it and bring race into it ? :wink:
 

carolk

R.I.P
Are we moral and what is morality?
'Stars' of the film and music industry make obscene amounts of money - thats immoral!! Please dont anyone bother telling me what they give to charity or lend their name to, it doesnt make a dent their hoards of money.

I don't care how talented they may be, they are just people and its just a job!
 

bobthenob

Non Active Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
The question you put ,is are we moral and what is morality.
Since we live in an imperfect world full of criminals that feeds of people with morals and classes moral behaviour as a form of weakness,does make one think is it right to have a moral way of thinking when your surrounded by idiots thinking on the lines of good is bad and bad is good.
Are we moral,l would say generally we are but is being eroded very quickly by the political system with their policies of wrong thinking.As we are in no doubt aware of how they have been nibbling away at the edges of moral behaviour over the decades has now left the door open for the criminal mind to have more power over morality then morality over wickedness.The modern world does promote self interest and self fulfillment that leaves moral thinking being abandoned.

What is morality.Morality is thinking more of the other person then yourself and how to behave in a way towards that person without causing any suffering mentally and physically.
The reason we live in a world that is plague with so much fraud is because we are surrounded by an extremely unethical society hell bent with a growing attitude of selfishness and greed.

The person that gives to a charity doesn’t make him moral,it comes from within.Many rich people have given money away for selfish reasons.Like buying a title or putting my name forward for a place in the film etc.A person with morals would never think like that.By giving something expecting to receive something back is totally immoral.So it is how one looks at morals as an pretence or as a upright human being with integrity
 
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pebble

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
MARTYN GREAT THOUGHT PROVOKING POST.
I am like you.........
I give to charity, I help others for no payment and give up my time. I've brought my family up with good valuesI tried, honesty and integrity
But when it comes to piracy, and trademark infrigement, I do have a problem.
I dont mind paying someone less for not taking a receipt, (paying under the table) in the US. In turkey its so commonplace that you cant even make a judgement call. their system is effin corrupt and disgusting (for lack of a better technical term, - im sure there is one, its just not coming to me).
but the piracy thing........this is the way i see it...........
for the "big name labels - like louis vitton, prada, chanel, you get the idea, the handbag industry. " who the f**k can afford 800 and upward for an effin purse? i have seen some in magazines advertised at thousand and thousands of dollars..........same with shoes of the same brands of above...........hello........
it just doesnt make sense.
the originals are made in china for the most part, but one final process is made in their "home" country, and are then stamped made in bum fuc*ked egypt or wherever. the same working class is making them.
I used to sell lumber to a factory in china, the owner was in taiwan, i sold to him for years, became good personal friends with his family, I would go over once a year and meet with him and discuss the coming year's orders, he was suck a cheap bastard i used to think it was a good busmenmn tactic, and would always allow a little something that i could give in on..you know...save face etc........
then one year I traveled to china to visit his facotry, what an impressive operation he had going. (did i say he was a picture frame manufacturer) had contracts in place with places like TARGET, WAL-MART, and some others that i didnt know, probably in euroepean brands that i dont remember, but could be with marcs n spencer and or tesco.......he had upper scale and lower scale. when you buy lumber, the best way to buy it, is instead of ":all no 1 grade" or all no 3 grade" a MILL RUN PRODUCT - YOU get the best of both worlds, mills try to push the grade and thow in extra good grade so they keep the customer as a steady, cause mill run is an easy grade to sell.
back to the factory........WALTER WAS VERY CHEAP....you get that idea right???

the factory was state of the art, out back, a huge dormitory, with a canteen or cafeteria that would put an army to shame.
their dormitories had a cleaning staff that kept it clean.

the actual factory was awesome - i wont go into detail - suffice it to say - it was one of the best operations i had ever seen.

walter of course was real proud, and gloading about this and that........
and he mentioned that he paid his workers 30 dollars a month, and he provided free dormitories, food, one day off a week, and incentives (or bonuses) etc etc.
i of course made all the appropirate noises, and praised him to high heaven, I was in business for crying out loud, i learned how to cow tow...i was a woman trader (only a handfull of us at the time, and I was one of the few who was in the HARDWOOD INDUSTRY and actively pursued the export market) in a male dominated field, and had this customer that would carry me if i lost every other customer I had. what would u have done.

But that whole sureal trip never left me. I kept thinking about it and mulling it over, and every time i renewed negotiatipns, i mulled it over, and finally i said, f*k it, just get over it........business is business - a man lumber trader would not have given it a second thought........

so.....when i look at all the so called knock offs, wether it is made in china, thailand, turkey or whatever, i think of all those picture frames and how much money walter was making, and i get over it real fast............

the thing about the good q
 

pebble

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
hmmm dont know why that did that, and i know this is a back to back post, but want to finish my thought/.

the ones made in turkey, (the bags)
Turkey is known worldwide for its leather industry, they have really talented leather workers, they make gorgeous leather stuff, and their purses/pags/shoes are as good a quality as the italian stuff.....truly it is, if you go into Izmir and istanbul and do some shopping where the LOCALs do, you would see it.

the leather trade has lowered itself (or shall i say prostituted itself to the copycat industry) and make amost perfect copycats (you may not have seen these either - they only take them out to people they deem worthy - and know that they can afford a fairly high sum)

they should be making their own brands and market them, they need to do get their talents out there, on the runways, etc., but instead they are taking the easy way out and selling themselves short.

well.......i know its been a long ranble, but this is just one of my pet peeves. my brother in law here is a state attorney for the state of TX and likes to travel, and has been to turkey several times, he loves all the fakes, but cant buy any, cause he is the district attorney, he is a fed employee and they scrutinize him when he comes back and really search his bags. he can never be seen with a fake anything. we are so uptight over here about things like that.........
 
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pebble

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
i must be hitting someting not knowing, cause it keeps sending without me knowing it.....

so anyway, that is my feeling on the subject.

as for the pirated videos etc...i see no harm in it, i used to watch them in turkey, and listen to the music cds etc., the artist in them make soooo much money, they wont miss it.


thats it for my ramblingsl
 

Martyn

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
I know what you are saying Pebble but if things are means tested I can take John Terrys Plasma tv because he earns a fortune playing football and can afford to get another.:biggrin:
 

peter the postie

Wer'e not really here
Are we moral and what is morality?
Its not so much the artists as the companies or people who own their contracts that make the most from cd's. Artists only get a small slice.

I give to charity through my pay each week, but only for one particular cause that I feel very strongly about. I think its easy to confuse morals with values.
I think it would be very difficult to go through life these days claiming to be thoroughly moral.
 

Fendouglas

Gangless!
Are we moral and what is morality?
Does anyone pay royalties when they sing "Happy Birthday" in public?

Personally I think morality should be judged by higher things than this.

If, "in public", you mean on licenced premises, the premises should be covered by a 'Performing Rights Society' (PRS Licence)

The thread is using such as this to judge morality.

I made an Album in the 70's which contained 12 original songs and were performed by myself. My "obscene" earnings from this Album amounted to 17.5p per copy sold - that's £175 for every 1,000 copies - no a lot, but grossly denigrated by the number of people, I know of, who taped copies they'd borrowed from the Library. The reason I know of some of these cheap w*nkers is that some of them had the temerity to ask me to autograph their bootleg tapes at gigs - and then look offended when I said "Yes, but it'll cost you 17.5p".

I think we should have a poll to establish at what level 'theft' becomes immoral!:27:
 

Alan Fidler

Ceteris paribus
Are we moral and what is morality?
Great post Martyn... it'll prompt a lot of thought provoking..
Like you and others i give to charity,
I believe i was brought up to know right from wrong and have tried to bring up my kids in the same way.
I have never knowingly bought anything knocked off, pirated ( probably been caught out a couple of times)... but I'll not knowing buy something that's fake.
I've worked for nothing for good friends.. I've tried hard to help those in need who cant afford the extortionate rates that some so called professional tradesmen charge.
I will ask someone what they have been quoted and ask for a lot less for cash... and I'll do a job.
Being in the trade i know the true cost of labour and materials, materials is usually where some robbing B*****D will do you over...
Telling you this that or the other needs to be done or replacing when it doesn't.
I wont rob anyone... whats the point.? if you're honest and they're happy they'll want more.
It's been my moral all my working life and it's kept me busy and in demand.

Alan.
 

petlover

Member
Are we moral and what is morality?
i have to say that i have bought fake goods because that is all i can afford. Morals are fine when you have the money for the luxury. don't get me wrong i am all for law abiding but i could only dream about owning a gucci then i visited the market.if i had the money to buy original i still probably wouldn't because i can think of a lot of needy causes that i could spend that sort of money so i would still buy fake.if goods are offered to me that are stolen then no way would i buy them because they were sold due to someone else's misfortune. i would say i follow my conscience and would advocate that is what people do, then just ask can they sleep at night. I sleep soundly as long as no one sets my dogs off.
 
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Sunny Seasider

Life is so precious
Are we moral and what is morality?
Actually it makes perfect sense.

You are not really buying a handbag you are buying a status, like being a lord or lady in years gone by.

Thats why when you see tracksuited oinks from a manchester or london estate wearing a Burberry cap or carrying a prada bag you know they are part of the underclass, they would never really afford such luxuries so they resort to wearing copies.

The designers love the exposure of the brand as it gives greater recognition and reinforces its value but if they dont contest counterfeits and fakes and everyone is seen to be using the brand then there is nothing to make rich people spend a fortune on the products. Its all just clever marketing.

I have never used the term, but where does the saying 'CHAV' come from? I have heard it used when, in your quote above, "oinks", lol
 

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